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Post by ianmoss on Sept 11, 2013 21:47:04 GMT
My last couple of rides I have felt pain in the V between my thumb and index finger when riding on the hoods. I automatically thought 'need a shorter stem'... Not soβwhen I got the bike I set up everything in a 'common wisdom' way, saddle at the right height with a slight knee bend, cleats set back with a little toe out to match my natural foot angle and 'knee over pedal axel' which was achieved by moving the saddle forward. When researching into my hand pain, lots of answers were saying it could be over stretching. It didn't seem right to me, my old bike had a longer top tube, and therefor a greater distance to the hoods. plus I was a bit smaller back then and I never had that problem. Further research I found some professional opinions on bike fitting that related o the 'knee over pedal axle' setup which is great for power output but not great for comfort. the advice suggested that a further forward position shifts your centre of gravity forward and thus more upper body weight needs to be supported by the arms, wrist and hands rather than the 'old posterior!' Thinking of my mountain bike which I ride comfortably with no hand pain, my position in relation to the pedals is well back (sometimes I notice I'm hanging well back off the saddle. I have duly moved my saddle back to 'centre of saddle is over seat post' and down a few mm and went for a few laps of the block. I found it a much more comfortable position and no hand pain. Just goes to show that taking a look at the pros and trying to mimic their technique is not always the way to go. Some very good fitting wisdom from the following links, hope it helps anyone who is suffering with any issues. Steve Hogg Bike Fitting
myth busting youtube video
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 11, 2013 22:28:03 GMT
Not sure I wholly agree with that buddy - not looked at the links but responding to your comments.
Lowering the saddle too low and hanging off the back could reduce your power output and put your hips in an odd angle / arch your back in an uncomfortable or performance reducing way.
These things are never quite as simple as you first think ... if it works then fine but if you start getting back aches or your average speed is down, then you may have introduced new issues in place of the old ones.
A quick nip round the block won't tell you enough and also bear in mind your bike fit is a moving target as condition and all sorts of other factors play a part.
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 11, 2013 22:30:56 GMT
PS ... I would gamble that a different stem length and hoods angle or perhaps just a different hoods angle would have also taken the pain away. I wouldn't alter the fore aft and knee over axle position as the first step to a remedy of the hand issue personally, particularly if that was set right.
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 11, 2013 22:33:50 GMT
Try this one as a good overview:
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Post by ianmoss on Sept 11, 2013 22:41:24 GMT
PS ... I would gamble that a different stem length and hoods angle or perhaps just a different hoods angle would have also taken the pain away. I wouldn't alter the fore aft and knee over axle position as the first step to a remedy of the hand issue personally, particularly if that was set right. The first couple of rides I had no problems, I only realised after I had done the seat forward adjustment. Height is now better, only reduced by 3mm. The hanging off the back of saddle was only on my Marin MTB which is an old clunker for the family rides. I seam to be seated correctly now, we shall see how it goes, more rides of more distance will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2013 22:52:03 GMT
If moving the seat back has seemingly fixed the problem so far, perhaps you need a longer stem with the seat positioned as it used to be?
To me pain in the V between thumb and finger sounds like you had too much pressure there, a longer stem stretching you out more would decrease the pressure there much like moving the seat backwards.
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Post by ianmoss on Sept 11, 2013 23:15:04 GMT
If moving the seat back has seemingly fixed the problem so far, perhaps you need a longer stem with the seat positioned as it used to be? To me pain in the V between thumb and finger sounds like you had too much pressure there, a longer stem stretching you out more would decrease the pressure there much like moving the seat backwards. My hand is in a much more comfortable place now, there is very little pressure on the hoods, I can more or less take my hands of while still being in the same riding position. The main part of my hand that rests on the bars is the area under my little finger. My hands are now in a more 'pulling a trigger' position than, 'choking someone'. If it turns out this is the correct distance for me, then, as Radchenister rightlysuggested, getting the knee over the axle, I can pair the shift forward with a longer stem. I will continue to post my findings, as it's sometimes useful to others.
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 11, 2013 23:35:35 GMT
If moving the seat back has seemingly fixed the problem so far, perhaps you need a longer stem with the seat positioned as it used to be? To me pain in the V between thumb and finger sounds like you had too much pressure there, a longer stem stretching you out more would decrease the pressure there much like moving the seat backwards. Which is exactly what I've just experimented with via testing a shorter stem (90mm for about 4 or 5 weeks) finding I needed to turn up the bars so the hoods were less flat, due to not enough leg room when climbing out the saddle and knocking the bar ends, thus making the arm and hands uncomfortable in normal use, as well as the feeling that my hands were too far into the body when climbing out the saddle. So I returned to the 110mm stem again! Before this departure, I had spent considerable time finding a comfy hoods angle and saddle height, that was far flatter than I had first imagined would be 'normal' when transferring over from MTBing. The conclusion being that a backward rotation of the wrist was loading my hands and arms in an uncomfortable way. I had thought with a shorter stem, I'd be able to angle the arms more at the elbow and not get this issue but on the 90mm this proved not to be the case; I ended up sitting more upright, locking the arms more when seated and bending the wrists back again - loading the hands up in the wrong way causing discomfort. Getting the 110mm back on made me tip forward a bit more but the back arch and hip angle were more comfortable again. I also had more leg space for better climbing out the saddle, with bars rotated forwards again and the hoods flatter and less arm straining. I realise that this does rely on my core strength to act with the arms more but I find this is fine, as the core is more powerful than the wrists and lower arms and that's doing more of the work proportionately. The guy in the second link / video shown by the OP introduces some good points but equally, he is annoyingly vague about what he's actually trying to say - what he does get over is the idea that no-one is the same and 'KOP' or 'bars over front spindle' have some limitations, which I think is fair comment ... but it doesn't just mean you sit back and lower your saddle if you fancy it; all sorts of issues with pedal stroke, hip and back angles / comfort and power come back into play. When you consider he also points out that the pedal action and centre of gravity work together, suggesting getting it more forward prone, I believe this is contrary to the OP's repositioning (I think, if reading correctly) - I'm not sure that was the message the bike fit vid man was trying to get over. I think balance and neutrality is OK as a concept, but not to the detriment of performance (?) is what he means but didn't get over very well. Just one more point, my departure onto the 90mm stem was out of curiosity that I view the front wheel spindle behind the bars with the 110mm stem, it was dead in line with the 90mm stem (the uncomfortable set up) - this tells me that I concur with him on the rules of thumb not being hard and fast. When thinking about it, I have a high ape index (long arms), medium to long legs and short torso, meaning I naturally have good core strength and a long arm arm reach making the bars forward of the front axle position logical. This is the result of following the fore aft and saddle height set-up procedures in the vid I posted and the hands finding their own space and angle after that. Conclusion ... I reckon the OP will have a few more experiments to play with yet .
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 11, 2013 23:42:49 GMT
If moving the seat back has seemingly fixed the problem so far, perhaps you need a longer stem with the seat positioned as it used to be? To me pain in the V between thumb and finger sounds like you had too much pressure there, a longer stem stretching you out more would decrease the pressure there much like moving the seat backwards. My hand is in a much more comfortable place now, there is very little pressure on the hoods, I can more or less take my hands of while still being in the same riding position. The main part of my hand that rests on the bars is the area under my little finger. My hands are now in a more 'pulling a trigger' position than, 'choking someone'. If it turns out this is the correct distance for me, then, as Radchenister rightly suggested, getting the knee over the axle, I can pair the shift forward with a longer stem. I will continue to post my findings, as it's sometimes useful to others. My main issue with what I think you're explaining, is that if you have set your legs back and arent pushing efficiently by having a low seat and rear of spindle position then the efficiency and performance may not be there, we are riding sportbikes after all. What I'm trying to get over is that you can get a similar feel and comfort to what I think you're describing but getting set forward a bit more so the legs, hip angle and back are given every chance to push those pedals round well. To do this I am reaching quite far forwards but have tipped the bars forward to make the arms and wrist comfortable. My current fit:
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 11, 2013 23:49:03 GMT
...oh and note flat saddle - this is one to watch as well, as it all interacts.
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Post by ianmoss on Sept 12, 2013 8:13:44 GMT
All good finding Rad, thanks for sharing. Just done my 3 miles in to work, feels much, much better. Bars are over now over (obscuring the front hub), I think a tweak to the angle of the hoods and I'll be there (until I build my fitness back up and I can start to think about power)
Rolling the bars down always ends up with a big WHOAAA! this first time you stand and punch the pedals and smack your knew on the bar end!!!
Your ride is looking sweet BTW
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 12, 2013 11:09:54 GMT
Not sure 3 miles is enough to judge either - think it's a case of keeping an open mind for all sorts of rides and finding your preferences over time.
I think (/ hope) I'm trying to explain that bar over hubs is not as important as fore, aft, seat height, seat angle first as the priority for optimised pedal pushing and having this within the realms of an acceptable comfortable reach; one where body position, bar angle, stem length etc all combine to achieve this.
For sport riding IMO, the latter issues are the second priority to good power transfer through pedals, both are achievable but getting comfy on a sportbike and not being able to power it fast is not what they're about I feel.
I wouldn't start out with the priorities the other way round, or you may as well have just bought a hybrid.
I hope I'm explaining that it can sometimes be a red herring the 'bar over spindle' thing ... and I've spent several months, three saddles, two stems and lots of experimental tweaks proving this to myself.
I am after getting you to consider if your current experiment might be to the detriment of power and if you can get similarly comfortable more forward prone?
There are limitations to what both of us are describing here of course, without any visuals to refer to your end.
For all we know this end, you could have been too far forward and have now got things back neutral?
I'd be interested to see a pic of your setup.
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Post by ianmoss on Sept 12, 2013 13:21:56 GMT
I agree about the short distance but before I was feeling pain within a couple of minutes on the hoods. The pedal spindle measure, yeah, bit of a pinch of salt with this, as I'm 5'8" with just about 30" inside leg which means I'm a short-arse!, by my calculations now, my knee is only maybe half inch behind now. I do think I have messed from the default positions, due to 'popular wisdom' - I think as you say, I have things more back to neutral now. 54cm frame, standard components. Blue lines are level Pink lines show pedal spindle vertical align and saddle nose in relation to BB. Orange line is where my knee joint (under knee cap) falls at the moment I think I will try everything 'as is' for a good few rides and see if I get any aches and pains and make some small adjustments, one at a time from there. I can get a shift on when I push, but it has been some years since I threw my leg over a road bike, trying to get some stamina established!
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Post by Radchenister on Sept 12, 2013 14:20:06 GMT
No image here on PC or phone/
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Post by ianmoss on Sept 12, 2013 14:40:10 GMT
Here's a better hosted pic
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