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Post by erictherat on Jun 23, 2014 20:59:23 GMT
simple for me - i ride hills and love my granny. i aint gonna be persuaded to change when i sweating up winnats. If i loved in Norfolk...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 21:20:32 GMT
If you're wanting to calculate what gear ratios you would have on different setups (i.e. a different cassette, crankset etc) and cba to do the calculations yourself, then this website is pretty decent: gear-calculator.com/#I used it to calculate the fact that my new Argon 18 with a 11 speed compact and 11-25 cassette will really only lose me two lower gears over my current 10 speed triple 11-28 on the triban and only 1 if I swap out to a 11-28 at some point if I find I'm really struggling!
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 21:36:16 GMT
I don't think you guys really get it I'm afraid (not you @toonsi , duplicate posts), you've not tried a compact and are making conclusions that those of us who've switched simply don't recognise as true. There's Rocket saying the gear ratios are tighter on a triple (when there's actually loads of duplication) and there's erictherat saying (once again) that he needs a granny ring - the bottom gear is pretty much near identical but for a gnat's whisker of difference on my bike when I switched from triple to compact. Try and get your heads around the images below, typical calc's for an eight speed 11-28 on the triple (you can't go bigger than 28 without a new rear mech' on the Red T3) and the ratios of the 10 speed that many of us have done, running on the compact, using an 12-30 cassette (standard issue option on 2012 Tiagra), essentially the spread of gears is pretty much the same as well - if anything the bottom end below is tighter ratio on the compact, as is the top (ignoring having to change back and forth across front cogs on the triple as you just don't do this in reality).Onto gear management - you only need to make one decision up front - am I opting to pick the small front for climbing or the large front for getting on with it.In addition, you can cross chain across the whole rear cassette either way if you really must, as it will cope, it's not maybe as efficient perhaps but you can do it - this is easier than changing across the three cogs on the triple. If you're slick and experienced (like say Rocket should be by now), you can get used to pre empting your terrain ahead and do this front shift around about the point where I've put the green arrows on the chart, this is to show both up-shifting and down-shifting - the chain will hardly be crossed at all if you do this. The only trickier thing to watch here on the compact, is knowing how to do a double right shift, after a single left shift, in order to access your range more smoothly. I found this was a bit funny at first but only for maybe 1 or 2 hours, after a while it's easy and you change across the front cogs less anyway, it's also a slicker shift generally (than Sora and miles better than Ounce), it's no bother at all to suss this concept. I do suggest people try one to compare them before poo pooing the above - I'd hope by now, with all the posts I've done on here, you'd realise that I wouldn't say this if it weren't my actual findings, unless winding you up of course (it'd be one elaborate wind up, fitting a whole group set and riding around for 6 months just to have a laugh) .
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 21:53:32 GMT
Further - a little exercise: On the compact, if I cross chain to the max when in the big ring up front, I can get to the equivalent to the fourth gear on the granny with the triple. Similarly, on the compact, if I cross chain to the max on the little ring up front, I can get to the equivalent of half way up the chart on the triple's dawg ring. You don't really do this once you're settled into the compact but it doesn't throw the chain if you do, the chain noise just gets a little louder.
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Post by robertsims on Jun 23, 2014 21:56:50 GMT
I was very sceptical before I changed to compact (amazed I ever actually made the change to be honest) but would never go back. Much prefer the compact and actually have a slightly lower gear with my 12-30 cassette on compact then I did with the triple granny ring and my 12-26 cassette. Compact just much simplier really. Hard to explain exactly why but just...better in my view.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 22:00:01 GMT
I'm trying to explain why robertsims but I get the impression people think it's smoke and mirrors. Hopefully the charts above should explain why (I do hope). Edit: PS - you should consider an 11-25 for that TT course down around Elberton.
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Post by william39 on Jun 23, 2014 22:03:53 GMT
Agree with the above. Like bibshorts and proper road shoes/pedals once you make the change you wish you had done it earlier and wouldn't go back.
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Post by erictherat on Jun 23, 2014 22:04:45 GMT
True - i only use very few combos - top 3 with granny, bottom 3 with big ring and middle 4 with the 39. I understand that my 30-28 is the same gear as a 34-30 (near enough). maybe i am just sitting in the comfort of having my granny. lets face it grannies are safe and comforting - they make us tea and cake <3. what i didnt realise was that a compact is ok crossed across the cassette. so it is very kind of ya Radchenister to offer to get me a new groupset. did you know my birthday is coming up?
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 22:18:53 GMT
The deal on at Ribble was undertaken after much deliberation this end - its the best value deal across the major suppliers; the 105 is attractive also but doesn't go quite as low at the bottom as standard issue. Next year the 105 will transcend its current level and step up to 11 speed, at present the Tiagra (that stepped up to 10 speed in 2012) is very close to it as a complete system, there's no concealed cables and a tad heavier of course but arguably it's simpler and more robust. 105 looks slick yes but I also quite like the Tiagra and in terms of VFM good honest kit, 'does what it says on the tin' style. I don't regret the purchase one bit, it's just about the optimum level to put on an original Red T3 IMHO and I think the wise old buzzards on here that have also done it are pretty good on that front.
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Post by Rocket on Jun 23, 2014 22:43:25 GMT
No 50/11 option on the compact double for comparison which is making the top end closer. A better comparison would have been for a 12-26 on the triple. Got to have my 11 tooth for descents though. Nice tables. Can imagine you in front of the projector on PowerPoint tapping the board with a pointer It's always going to be a compromise for me unless I fit different cassettes and/or chainsets depending on the ride but then that's what the top guys do.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 22:48:04 GMT
You can switch an 11 for the 12 as it's loose, ideally you have a few blocks and a compact and standard crank.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 22:50:00 GMT
...and for the record, you've been going on about your climbing gears earlier, not a 12 - 26; yes that would be tighter but would also have you off walking due to not being able to spin apparently !
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Post by Rocket on Jun 23, 2014 22:59:05 GMT
Just wanting to compare like for like for every body else, not saying it was for me. I'm sure I'd be walking on a 34/30. I'd really like a 30/30 for this specific climb as I could spin it all the way but that's taking things to the extreme. I'm only ikle remember and I don't like standing up as my L4/L5 busted disc plays up.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 23, 2014 23:29:40 GMT
30 / 30 is a non standard rear mech territory; think you could do similar with a compact but there's a limit to total ranges though. ianmoss may have looked into this, I haven't, as I can just about cope with real steep out the saddle with where I'm at - if a hill gets me walking these days it can have it, usually getting up over 25% to kill me off but not if I'm ready for it - last time I walked was via an off the scale gradient on Strava, a silly back lane / track that mate took me up purposely, as it is just silly steep and apparently no-one usually manages it. Had to walk on loose earth to side as couldn't get a grip on the tarmac in cleats, it was just silly. People can play with the gear calc's themselves of course for other variations. Checking the rear mech's tech doc is wise.
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Post by ianmoss on Jun 24, 2014 6:28:40 GMT
Just wanting to compare like for like for every body else, not saying it was for me. I'm sure I'd be walking on a 34/30. I'd really like a 30/30 for this specific climb as I could spin it all the way but that's taking things to the extreme. I'm only ikle remember and I don't like standing up as my L4/L5 busted disc plays up. I'm a bit confused Roy. Based on the way you smashed it up Holme Moss, pretty sure you weren't on the 30 much, (you just don't progress along enough) or on the 30 but halfway down the cassette (which is then covered on a compact with a decent cassette 28 or 32) correct me if I'm wrong. As far as the rear mech Radchenister mentioned. A standard short cage will handle 11-30 cassette with a compact front. Anything more at the back or less at the front will need a medium or long cage RD. Ultimately it's the choice of the rider - I don't preach, just pass on my experiences as I find them.
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