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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 14:05:37 GMT
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 19, 2013 14:25:48 GMT
I can't stand head cam threads, they're usually antagonistic, reactionary and perpetuate polarised positions - more often than not both parties are at fault.
Should we even bother with them on the TOC forum?
Unless there is some new issue to bring to the table, then what do they actually achieve?
I suppose someone will say that it helps educate both parties!
Does it though? Or do they descend into 'can't see the wood for the trees' territory too often?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 14:39:39 GMT
I don't see the point in uploading these all the time. If there is something on there that you can report to the authorities then do so but what's the point otherwise?
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 19, 2013 14:45:12 GMT
Clip 1 I see a car driver filtering into traffic and a cyclist not wanting to ease off the pace (we all do it) - not saying it's a 'right' or 'wrong' action on any side, it's borderline bad driving and a little misconceived on the motorist's part; I don't see any malice on the part of the car driver though - IMO they were allowing the car behind them to filter into the traffic also and may have had trouble getting round the fast moving cyclist. Yes they might have waited but they do have the bigger and faster vehicle - not a great example of motoring perhaps from the cyclist's viewpoint but that's the way it is sometimes. Clip 2 I see a cyclist pushing on again, not wanting to ease off the pace in a residential street (we don't all do it here, I would ease up); riding quite fast is ok but knowing when to rein it in equally so. Again, it's borderline if there is any error. Cyclist is moving in and around the door zone at pace, taking issue with someone doing a reasonably legitimate manoeuvre, in what should be a slow moving street (kids about); perhaps the driver was a little lacking in observation and misjudged the cyclist's speed but they stopped when realising there was a cyclist in proximity. Again, they could have waited more for the cyclist at the outset but they were already committed - they might have expected a little give and take, were likely surprised someone did the full confrontational stop and take issue thing with them, after they had stopped to let the cyclist past. They might have been a tad presumptuous expecting someone to ease off for them so they could manage their manoeuvre, in the same way the cyclist might expect some give and take for their greater vulnerability and commitment to utilising their own physical efforts to get about. That's that one wrapped up for you - the primary directive of Bill and Ted applies!
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Post by zoltansocrates on Jun 19, 2013 14:52:09 GMT
never leave home without my head cam, whats your YT name gaz? ill connect up to you.
i defy anyone of my videos to have been my fault, i do admit that perhaps i havent helped ease matters but when some inconsiderate sod is attempting to kill you for the sake of beating you to the lights then yes id say they are neccessary in the event of an insurance claim, at worst you can embarrass an idiot on the net, for all to see
bonnie scotland is adopting a 'driver fault no matter what' attitude and, as a driver too, i welcome it this country is a disgrace in the attitude towards cyclists and until we start prosecuting some of these morons and shaming them, it will continue
remember the silly lassie who tweeted about knocking over a cyclist? had he had a headcam there would have been no doubt as to her guilt
the only thing that bothers me about head cams is that you become an unpaid snooper for the 'man'
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 19, 2013 14:58:23 GMT
You're squarely into the all tarred with a single brush - let's all run into corners and get our heads into the 'us and them camp' mindset now immediately. Even your language is polarised. Don't you drive then ZS? I'm all for communication and education, not antagonism and extremism. The 'I'm never in the wrong stance' is not something I buy fella, if you truly believe that, then you can throw the stones at the stoning !
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Post by zoltansocrates on Jun 19, 2013 15:13:07 GMT
You're squarely into the all tarred with a single brush - let's all run into corners and get our heads into the 'us and them camp' mindset now immediately. Even your language is polarised. Don't you drive then ZS? Communication and education not antagonism and extremism. The I'm never in the wrong stance is not something I buy fella, if you truly believe that then you can throw the stones at the stoning ! LOL - Rad im never, NEVER, wrong - even when I am - just ask the missus i invite you to view some of my vids and tell me where i went wrong because im all for being educated, perhaps a rash initial statement but genuinely i dont see where i got it wrong, what i do see is impatience and ambivalence to a degree there is a them and us camp, i cover some 25-30k miles a year in my job but i dont have problems with cyclists because I know what they go through and adjust my behaviour accordingly - but the 'you dont pay road tax' camp are not for listening, so yes polarised opinions are the result - you will find folk who absolutely demand that there is a road tax and we cyclists have no say on the road as a result - we, cyclists, have been communicating and trying to educate drivers for decades and the results are that cyclists are still treated very poorly by a section of the driving public, if shaming them on youtube highlights their ignorance and, in the case of clip 1, their downright bloody mindedness, then im all for it, if it results in a prosecution then so be it im not going to patronise you by giving it the old country versus city cycling - some of my most scary moments have been on country roads, most of the time its a close pass at speed and if i do get a conversation its generally viewed that i was in the middle of the road - video evidence is crucial if we want to quash those accusations and bring bad drivers to heel yes we all make mistakes, that is a given, but that first clip for example, to me, shows a driver seeing a cyclist coming and doesnt want them to pass him, hed have had a knock on the back of his car as i cycled past - unacceptable headcams themselves DO polarize people, some hate them some love them, just like pinarello or sram - but in this ever increasingly litigeous world in which we live i think they are a neccesity
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 15:13:59 GMT
Clip 1 - If the car filtering into my lane kept up with his speed then there would have been no issue, But did he really have to slam on his brakes?. Would you do this on a motorway, or do you have to keep up with the speed of the traffic?
Clip 2 - Not sure you can see properly, but the car in question actually stops until I get very close then she decides to move forwards. If I had made contact then it would have been the front of her car that hit me.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 19, 2013 15:16:40 GMT
You carry on, I can put a different viewpoint back on each of your views but can see we're into polarised arguments and egocentric stances already, as I predicted from at the start.
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Post by psyclepath on Jun 19, 2013 15:22:33 GMT
I don't see the point in uploading these all the time. If there is something on there that you can report to the authorities then do so but what's the point otherwise? The fact is that unless you live in London and can use "Roadsafe" (which only really involves a letter going out to the driver and a record being kept on file) the authorities simply do not do anything. Unless someone is actually killed or very seriously injured (as in they won't make a full recovery) the Police won't do anything. I upload mine complete with reg number in the hope that people (especially the idiots on the school run near where I live who think it is fine to park on zigzags and drive on the pavement) might actually be shamed that their selfishness is up on the internet for eternity for all to see. I live in a 20mph zone yet the police cite "lack of resources" to actual enforce it, yet the local bobby was featured in the local paper recently as part of his investigation into a "prankster" who was taking down notices from the village notice board (is that even a criminal offence?!). I do concede that this country has done a lot to reduce the carnage on our roads historically, though this has mainly been achieved by removing most non car traffic from the roads, rather than actually making our street livable and safe for people to walk and cycle.
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Post by captslog on Jun 19, 2013 15:28:27 GMT
Clip 1, Not sure. I think the driver doesn't realise what he's doing, might be looking for the left turn rather than at you. In the latter stages it looks as if he's trying to sprint away to dump you from his bum/left so that he has room to brake and make the turn safely
Clip 2. Just a SMIDSY to start with, and later wondering why you've stopped.
Just opinions, can't be arsed to watch them twice. Most non-cycling motorists don't appreciate how precious your speed is that you've worked so hard to gain when they can do all that and more by just a little squeeze of toe.
Just for interest and balance, I nearly had three collisions on the way home last night (riding The Nail) with bikes coming in the opposite direction in the wrong place on the cycle path, all within 1/2 a mile The first was a mountain biker coming down a ramp that has a hairpin in it. He just HAD to use all the path didn't he? outside of bend to apex to outside again rather than using the FRIGGING BRAKE YOU MUPPET! [and breathe].
After the third near miss I was getting a bit jittery, I nearly got off and walked. I was looking at the windows to check I still had a reflection and hadn't turned invisible.
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Post by psyclepath on Jun 19, 2013 15:35:17 GMT
You're squarely into the all tarred with a single brush - let's all run into corners and get our heads into the 'us and them camp' mindset now immediately. Even your language is polarised. Don't you drive then ZS? Communication and education not antagonism and extremism. The I'm never in the wrong stance is not something I buy fella, if you truly believe that then you can throw the stones at the stoning ! LOL - Rad im never, NEVER, wrong - even when I am - just ask the missus i invite you to view some of my vids and tell me where i went wrong because im all for being educated, perhaps a rash initial statement but genuinely i dont see where i got it wrong, what i do see is impatience and ambivalence to a degree there is a them and us camp, i cover some 25-30k miles a year in my job but i dont have problems with cyclists because I know what they go through and adjust my behaviour accordingly - but the 'you dont pay road tax' camp are not for listening, so yes polarised opinions are the result - you will find folk who absolutely demand that there is a road tax and we cyclists have no say on the road as a result - we, cyclists, have been communicating and trying to educate drivers for decades and the results are that cyclists are still treated very poorly by a section of the driving public, if shaming them on youtube highlights their ignorance and, in the case of clip 1, their downright bloody mindedness, then im all for it, if it results in a prosecution then so be it im not going to patronise you by giving it the old country versus city cycling - some of my most scary moments have been on country roads, most of the time its a close pass at speed and if i do get a conversation its generally viewed that i was in the middle of the road - video evidence is crucial if we want to quash those accusations and bring bad drivers to heel yes we all make mistakes, that is a given, but that first clip for example, to me, shows a driver seeing a cyclist coming and doesnt want them to pass him, hed have had a knock on the back of his car as i cycled past - unacceptable headcams themselves DO polarize people, some hate them some love them, just like pinarello or sram - but in this ever increasingly litigeous world in which we live i think they are a neccesity I'm with you ZS, my headcam cost around Β£35 plus an sd card, I view it as essential and wear it every time I go out. Every cyclist should have one. I always love the "you're in the middle of the road" response. Thank you Mr driver I will use the whole lane if I decide to. If I have to hold you up then I will. You own a car, not the road. Antagonistic? Probably, but then if you want change that's what we have to do, things simply cannot go on like they are. Country / Rural roads IMO have become even more of a deathtrap than they were 30 years ago, due to the speeds that modern cars can "safely" (as in the occupants are safe) travel at. Some vehicles put the fear of god into me when they pass at speed on such roads at 60mph+, people are scared of using them unless they are in a car themselves. It is a situation that MUST change. I do drive by the way, yet would never drive around another human being the way an idiot minority do around me, just because I choose to ride a bike.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 19, 2013 15:35:48 GMT
I am squarely in the camp of yes use them by all means, do it to make legitimate points and educate people / even defend yourself after being wronged, so that some graduate lawyer can be employed with your footage on a business park somewhere and you can have some compensation ! It's the stopping to argue, shaking heads and arm waving, swearing at people stuff that doesn't do much for me - it is simply the yin to the bad driver's yang; just convinces me that they're all bonkers. Quite often the 'ooh look I've got some footage coming here' stance is palpable and none of this does anything for the cause of better driving. IMO we need all road users to buy into sharing the space available and more courtesy / understanding that the rhythms and needs are different for different users. If it was my kids I'd just tell them to play nicely.
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Post by Radchenister on Jun 19, 2013 15:43:42 GMT
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Post by zoltansocrates on Jun 19, 2013 15:50:03 GMT
lol - thats it in a nutshell, lets play nicely, all for that.
Antagonism works in changing mindsets though, without it Emeline Pankhurst would never have gone on to be the worlds most famous horse race sabotuer
the sweary stuff, mmm irks me when i look back at my own behaviour BUT in the heat of the moment, given the implications of it going nipples heavenward and the fact that in my 20 odd years of cycling i have never been anything other than a grumpy sod, again ask the missus about me post ride
the real deal is that there is a facility in place to protect us, MOST drivers see a camera on your helmet and cool it, people are beginning to learn that p'ing off a camera cyclist can have far reaching consequences, that has to be for the good
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